Reverseable or not?

[MrTAME]

I was just wondering if damage done to the liver by D-bol is reverseable?
What exatly does D-bol do to the liver that is so bad?
I know the 17aa's put a tremendous amount of stress on the liver in order to get the test through the liver without the test being flitered out. But what exactly is it that 17 aa does to the liver that is soo bad? Does it actually work the livewr soo hard that it destroys spots on the liver leaving it looking something like cancer or is it reversable like "light fatty" alcohol damage?

MrTAME

[barnes3]

Its not cancerous... the effects that it has on your liver is similar to that of alcohol or advil or anything else that would pass through your liver to be filter into your blood stream. I am not good at explaining things.... I'll make it simple... the liver's cells (if I recall correctly) regenerate themselves (or is that the tongue)..........but in anycase your liver acts as a filter and as a filter it can be cleaned....man I am just getting worse and worse at this explaining thing.....best that I just let someone else explain it.....I think that I am getting farther and farther from what I am wanting to say....

barnes3

"Real Leaders are ordinary People with Extraordinary Determination"

[chewstermaniac]

(blatantly ripped from another site, but i found it informative)

It is already well established the hepatic toxicity of AS 17 aa, however that hepatotoxicity happens in different ways in agreement with the 17 aa used.

Alterations in the structure of the hepatic cell probably happen as a result of lipidic perioxidation of the membrane, as it was observed experimentally with methyltestosterone, oximetholone and stanozolol, through the increase of plasmatic LDH (extravasated enzyme of the harmed cell) and decrease of the glutahione (antioxidant) (Welder et al, 1995).

Surprisingly, two studies done with Oxandrolone 80mg / day in the malnutrition treatment of alcoholic hepatitis showed IMPROVEMENT in the hepatic function, 6 months survival and nutritional state (Mendelhall et al,1984/1993), however the author alerts for the potential risk of administering a 17aa for patients with established hepatic lesion and suggests new studies. In any way, it is an indicative of the low hepatotoxicity of the oxandrolone.


Bile retention in the biliary ducts happens mainly with the oximetholone, and no rare jaundice not accompanied by enzymatic alterations is observed with therapy with that drug. The most serious effects of the oximehtolone, hepatic peliosis and even tumors are reverted with the discontinuity of the use and an extensive revision done recently failed in proving the correlation between AS and liver cancer.

Taking into account what is known until today, what would be indicated for "protection" of the liver?
As for the liver protectors efficiency, it is proven that milk thistle improves the recovery of the acute hepatitis, reduces the mortality in the fulminant hepatitis and it improves the hepatic enzymatic profile in alcoholic hepatitis (Flora et al, 1998), being the only recommended herb in the hepatic cirrhosis by the influential Blumenthal of monographs in herbal medicine . Of course the use of antioxidants, reducing hepatocyte membrane lipidic perioxidation is also suitable, so glutathione, lutamine, selenium and more recently Alpha lipoic acid (ALA) assured their usage. Recently it was demonstrated that the use of the combination selenium / alpha lipoic acid / milk thistle was effective treating hepatitis C , normalizing the hepatic function and turning unnecessary the hepatic transplant in a significant number of patients (Berkson et al, 1999).

Besides, ALA showed to be an efficient quelant( sp?) (substance that links to the other, usually inactivating it) for cadmium and iron, reducing in an effective way its hepatotoxicity, and to complete, to the similarity of the sylibum, it constitutes an effective antidote for intoxications by mushrooms of the type Amanita.

How, then, to optimize hepatic protection during a cycle?

1)Alcoholic abstinence;

2)Vaccination against hepatitis (advisable for anybody, mainly for those that frequently manipulate needles; of course is for your own use, but a contamination of the injected liquid, in spite of rare, is possible; besides, the contamination with the virus A and/or B can happen with any one, and there are some cases of AS users that developed serious liver lesions because they had used 17 aa AS and already had hepatitis);

3)Avoid the combination of 17aa, frequently seen in oral-only cycles;

4)Avoid hepatotoxic drugs and herbs, mainly during cycles with 17 aa (avoid confrei, echynacea, valerian root, nicotinic acid, iron, Vit A more than 10.000UI/day, antibiotics like Clavulonate, azitromicin, tetracycline and erytromicine, isotretinoine (accutane), phenytoin, bupropione (Zyban), tryciclics. In general check for hepatic side effects before using a drug in a cycle with 17aa.

5)Avoid ingestion of saturated fat;

6)Use ALA 100mg 3 caps 3x a day;
7)Use milk thistle 300mg/day;

8)Use glutamine 30g / day;

9)Vit E/ C / selenium;

10) Water;

11) Taraxacum officinale ( dandelia), increases the bile excretion, dry extract 3g / day or tincture 50 drops 3x a day.

The use of amino acids that are part of the hepatic metabolism, as mehytionine, inosine and choline, as well as Vit B 12 doesn't have scientific proof, being just reserved for use in patients with nutritional deficit.

Lab work is also a form of hepatic protection, because lab alterations frequently precede symptoms and allow diagnosis and precocious therapy, which is fundamental in the preservation of our metabolic plant, the liver.

[MrTAME]

..."Surprisingly, two studies done with Oxandrolone 80mg / day in the malnutrition treatment of alcoholic hepatitis showed IMPROVEMENT in the hepatic function, 6 months survival and nutritional state (Mendelhall et al,1984/1993), however the author alerts for the potential risk of administering a 17aa for patients with established hepatic lesion and suggests new studies. In any way, it is an indicative of the low hepatotoxicity of the oxandrolone... "

This is very interesting. I am sure that there are actually many other variables in this study to take into account. The person probably actually discontinued the use of alcohol and actually started eating solid food. This could have resulted in the increased function of the hepatic liver all in itself. I'll have to look into this study...

Thanx for the help! However I am looking for something more along the lines of what the 17aa itself does to the liver that makes it so toxic. What are the results of 17aa damage to the liver. Does it result in fatty deposits around the liver or does it stress the liver cells so much that they die?
If someone could help me there then I could determine if the damage itself is reversable or not. Thanx for the help Boyz.
MrTAME

[evilgoach]

I believe the reason some aas need to be aa17 is to increase their half life when being taken orally. I'm no expert so anyone please correct me but, when the alpha molecule of the compound being used is in the 17th position it makes it harder for the liver to break down and metabolize, therefore extending halflife. This being the case it has to pass through the liver multiple times which stresses the liver. Can anyone back me up?

[Blood]

Not to get any more technical then the above posts and I am not really going to be answering your question either but taking Milk Thistle puts a coating around the liver to protect it from damaging substances (Tylenol, Alcohol an oral AAS) I have read a study that said including milk thistle Oral steroid users have found that the damaging effects that are often associated with oral AAS use can almost be totally eliminated with Milk Thistle.

So Load up on Milk Thistle. Your liver breaks down everything so why not protect it the best way you can. I buy Milk Thistle several bottles at a time and I have never used an Oral AS. I sometimes take 6 7 8 or more at a time every now and then just in case it might help the important organ. WHy not you can't over do it and it is not that expensive.