HELP! getting ready to order!

[hazcat]

Run your cyp during your cycle. Nobody in the world can tell you how much you're going to gain. Not only does it depend on how much you eat and train it depends on your genes and where you're at in your genetic potential. If I throw a dart at my dart board which number will I hit? You put up that you're taking 200g a week which means 2 grams a week. I think you meant to put up 200 mg's. Any doctor that would prescribe 2 grams a week for trt would be in prison pretty darn quick.

[Floridagrowin]

I didn't think you were on 400mg for trt. I know we talked about you just bumping it up far a "cycle" period so now it makes better sense.

The dbol will give you more gain but less quality IMO and you will lose some of it. Adrol, well I just wouldn't consider it. If you have had blood work done and have no liver issues then you could run the winstrol for 6 weeks orally. You could pin it also to avoid the liver issue but it can be painfull. I would just take it oral unless you have issues. Plus winstrol will work synergenically with the NPP and help keep prolactin in check.

[Thashin]

Since that's cleared up..
Id suggest you run your total Test at 600mg then...
Pin your usual 200mg of Test C per week then add another 400mg of Test P.

I'd suggest running injecting Wintrol EOD then taking it oraly in between those days. Oral winny works more synergisticly with Test by lowering SBHG and injecting winstrol gives you more nitrogen retention helping build muscle and avoids first pass...

Here is a more in depth description of the differences between oral and injecting winny...Winstrol - Oral versus Injectable (More Different Than You Think!) - MMA News Forums

Cycle I'd suggest:
Wks 1-6 Test C 200mg
Wks 1-6 Test P 400mg (Split 100mg EOD)
Wks 1-6 NPP 400mg (Split 100mg EOD)
Wks 1-6 Winstrol 50mg ED (alternating between oral and injectable)

[willsouth]

sweet....yeah i i'm liking this ideal of the winny, i'm really glad you guys suggested it, i guess with it in addition to the others i may gain more quality mass, and possibly retain more of what i gain. once again thank you guys so much for all the input, once my gear gets here i'll keep yall posted!

[Thashin]

Originally Posted by Floridagrowin

Plus winstrol will work synergenically with the NPP and help keep prolactin in check.

I've never heard about winstrol controlling prolactin levels? How does it do this? I thought the only thing that effectively lowered prolactin were Dopamine Agonists like caber,bromo or prami.

[Floridagrowin]

From what I have read over the years winstrol supposedly inhibits prolactin by blocking progesterone receptors. Here is a post that talks about it. The actuall information in the post has been around a while. The vets of years passed used winstrol along side tren and deca for that purpose. IMO it would not be as effective as dostinex but when run with deca or tren that is being dosed low to moderately it would have benefit.

Controlling Prolacting Sides

[Thashin]

I'll have to look a bit more into this...
The thread you linked...I didnt see any info about winstrol being used to control prolactin.

Anyway...
I searched a bit and actually found a thread where a study was quoted where winstrol actuallly attached to progesterone receptors and had the same effect as progesterone when binding to the receptors...

Could just be a myth...

[Thashin]

recopied from Nandi at CEM:

Won't this notion ever die? One of the mods at elite posted this tired old abstract. I chimed in below:

Hi fellas...Was reading through some of my abstracts and found this interesting one,showing a definite stanozolol/Progesterone receptor interaction,thought you guys might enjoy it as well...

Ellis AJ, Cawston TE, Mackie EJ.

Rheumatology Research Unit, Addenbrooke's Hospital, Cambridge, UK.

The anabolic steroid stanozolol stimulates the production of prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) and the matrix metalloproteinases collagenase and stromelysin in human skin fibroblasts but not in rheumatoid synovial fibroblasts. The basis for these differential responses was investigated at the levels of DNA synthesis and steroid receptor binding. Stanozolol inhibited fibroblast growth factor (FGF)-stimulated DNA synthesis in both the skin and synovial fibroblasts, showing that both cell types were capable of responding to the compound. Competitive binding assays indicated that stanozolol bound specifically to both the skin and synovial fibroblasts. Binding of stanozolol to both cell types could be partially displaced by progesterone, indicating that stanozolol binds to the progesterone receptor. Immunocytochemical studies confirmed the presence of progesterone receptors on skin and synovial fibroblasts. However, progesterone failed to elicit any response with respect to collagenase production in either cell type. Nortestosterone, dexamethasone and 17 beta-oestradiol had no effect on binding of stanozolol to either cell type. These results indicate that the inhibition of DNA synthesis by stanozolol is elicited through the progesterone receptor. The effects of stanozolol on collagenase and PGE2 production are mediated by a different receptor, present on skin but not synovial fibroblasts, and as yet unidentified.

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Virtually all androgens bind to the progesterone receptor to some degree; similarly progestins (and antiprogestins) bind to the androgen receptor. RU 486 binds to the androgen receptor as an antiandrogen, rendering it useless for bodybuilders.

As far as the winstrol article goes, has anyone bothered to actually read the whole study? Presumably we are supposed to believe winstrol has some kind of antiprogestin capability because it blocked FGF stimulated DNA synthesis.

The effect on DNA synthesis was measured by thymidine uptake. Less thymidine uptake means less DNA synthesis. Quoting from page 38 of the article,

" A significant inhibition of thymidine uptake was seen in response to stanozolol in both cell types. The steroids nortestosterone, oxymetholone, and progesterone itself were also tested for their effect on thymidine uptake to determine whether the effects of stanozolol on DNA synthesis were unique. These other compounds also inhibited DNA synthesis in both cell types"

In other words, winstrol has THE SAME effect as progesterone on progesterone receptor mediated DNA synthesis: they both block it. So rather than acting as an antiprogesterone in this study, winstrol, as well as nandrolone and oxymetholone, act in the same manner as progesterone

[Thashin]

another post by nandi:
What is being said is that winstrol has the same effect as progesterone in that study. So it is a progesterone agonist. Nandrolone also has progestigenic preoperties, meaning it too binds to the progesterone receptor as as agonist (like progesterone). None of these drugs cause progesterone induced gyno because there is likely no such thing as progesterone induced gyno.

Deca aromatizes, so that certainly may contribute to gyno in its case. Fb47's theory is the most plausible theory as to how non aromatizing androgens could cause gyno. DHT exerts a number of antiestrogenic actions. When you suppress its production by taking nontestosterone based AAS, that could lead to gyno.

[Floridagrowin]

The article said Winstrol blocks progesterone receptors. I know this was an old school method used by those who used deca and/or tren before dostinex was available. Many did not like the risks associated with bromo.

When a user uses Testsoterone and an anti-e, he keeps his estrogen levels in check, and suffers no estrogenic or prolactin sides. When a user uses DECA, FINA, TREN or Anadrol, he may increase his prolactin levels. Bromo was a first-generation drug of choice for lowering prolactin levels with BB'ers. The problem with Bromo is proper dosing and the nasty side effects. Then along came Dostinex. It was easier to dose and it had no sides. Both of these drugs directly inhibit prolactin. Stanozolol or Winstrol also inhibits prolactin, but it does it differently. Winstrol blocks progesterone receptors. By doing so, it inhibits prolactin. While Dostinex is the safest way to control Prolactin, it is the most expensive. My next choice would be to use low-dose Winstrol (50mg, Mon, Wed, Fri) with my DECA, FINA/Tren, or Anadrol. You know the problems with Winstrol, but if the cycle is eight weeks or less, you will be OK. Also, I have found that if one keeps his weekly DECA dosing below 400mg weekly that Proalctin doesn't seem to be a problem. The important thing is to keep prolactin and estrogen under control during one's cycles. "