MGF & IGF-1 : (Diet)Timing

[DutchItalian]

My quest for 2007 is
1 to get my knees work better
2 to get upper pecs and front schoulders to grow into proportion
3 to get rid of old bodyfat

For my brother it's getting his biceps to grow. After reading more and more
on the subject I'm starting to think we should give this a run. I like maximum
effect so I want to do things as good as possible. I like following tight diet/intake
schedules, it gives me a good feeling if I think I'm maximizing effect with it.
I man I like feeling good:bigsmile

Ok so now I have run into this.

Anthony R states the following about dosage in his article: http://www.forums.isteroids.com/igf-...e-igf-mgf.html

...the magic starts with these drugs at about 80-100mcgs, which is injected
into the primary muscle trained in the preceding workout- half going into that
muscle on one side of the body, the other half going into the mirror image of
that muscle on the other side. At this point, adequate protein and carbs need
to be ingested, because IGF-1 is only going to be effective when there is
adequate protein in the body to build new tissue from.(13)

...Next, he recommends using Lr3IGF-1 about an hour later.

He didn't say a dose for the igf-1 at that point. Can we assume he means the
'standard' dose I read of like 40-80mcg a day..
Or does he mean 80-100mcg of MGF AND 80-100mcg IGF after each workout?
That sounds like alot.

Putting all I read together my schedule+diet for 4 weeks could be like this:

09:00 U]morning[/u] workout - 45min. easy cardio on my empty stomach,
and when I feel like it a rough short sprint before I stop.
10:00 right after that IGF-1 & slin and right after that my carb/whey shake
11:00 a wheyshake, maybe carbs also again if needed for anti-hypo
12:00 an appropiate meal (meat/potatoes or meat/rice for me )
14:30 same meal
17:30 same meal incl vegetables
19:00 evening workout - 45min. heavy weight excersizes, low reps
20:00 right after workout MGF & slin and my carb/whey shake
21:00 IGF and a whey shake
22:00 lean meat, grilled
0:00 pro shake, 1 apple, sleep

Anyone has something on how much calories when on MGF/IGF-1?
Is it possible to eat bulkstyle and still give me fatburning effect?
I'm at max 10% BF now.
People using IGF before workouts report big pump effect. Will this effect
also manifest the next training when I took it right after the past workout?

The reason why I chose only IGF after the morning WO is costs and the
lower priority for cardio.

Comments, suggestions and critics are appreciated

[Adam F]

In his article his recommendation is to inject them after working out. This is Hookers research or A. Roberts. I am also including another article written by Lakemount D (alias) on Theoerlitical Dosing

I cant give the proper respect (real name) because some ass hole that posted the Theoerlitical Dosing on another BB board didn't bother doing it.

I have personally never used this stuff just to let you know.


Why Inject After Workout?
you’ll get better results by injecting when levels of IGFBP-4 are lower than usual. In addition, at this time (right after a workout), IGF-1 levels are high (particularly MGF), and I feel that an additional spike in those levels would aid in the body’s ability to induce myogenesis and therefore hypertrophy. If I’m going to spend the money on IGF-1 and MGF, I’d rather inject them when binding protein levels are lowest, and they can have their maximum effect- and that means injecting them after a workout which contains a stretch component, as well as eccentric and concentric loads.
This is why I recommend shooting MGF immediately post workout, when natural levels of it are already elevated. The addition of extra MGF should push more satellite cells towards the formation of new muscle tissue,

Lr3IGF-1
recommend using Lr3IGF-1 about an hour later…because at this point, although MGF is still highly elevated, we can still derive a benefit from adding in some IGF-1, which will then be spliced appropriately into the isoforms which are most needed by the body.

Here is LakeMount Research for Dosage

Theoretical Dosing Protocols / Stacks

(Written by LakeMountD)
There are many various types of MGF, MGF+IGF-1, IGF-1 stacks that have been attempted and although many of them have been successful, there hasn’t, yet, been a standalone winner. This is due to many factors including availability, price, and little experimental evidence on topics such as down regulation of receptors, antibody production, and suppression of natural hormones/growth factors. There are a lot of people on various boards attempting to “figure out” the scattered scientific data that is spread throughout the internet but it is doing only a small amount of good since most studies conducted on MGF and IGF-1 are done on rats and almost all of the studies done using IGF-1 use the naturally occurring IGF-1. There are a lot of doctors and users who question the safety of exogenous IGF-1 use, however. The prime reason surrounding this questionability is due to the fact that IGF-1 has been shown to increase the growth rate of cancerous tumors. It must be noted, however, IGF-1 does not directly cause cancer, however, if a cancerous cell culture is already forming then IGF-1 can increase the rate of growth through many of the same pathways it increases muscle growth.
In your body IGF-1 is spliced into many different variants that have different anabolic properties. IGF-1Ea and MGF seem to make up the greatest and more important spliced variants of the IGF-1 that is spliced in response to the process of lactosis (lactic acid oxidation caused by the “burn” you feel when lifting weights), which causes muscle damage. The lactic acid is currently thought to be the culprit as well for other irregular spliced variants of IGF-1, such as des 1-3 IGF-1, which is said to be 10 times more potent than that of IGF-1Ea. The most common variant seen in bodybuilding is Long Chain R3 IGF-1 or LR3 IGF-1. This is due to the fact that LR3 IGF-1 cannot be bound to the IGF-1 Binding Protein 3 (IGF-1 BP3). IGF-1 and IGF-1 BP3 levels are released based off circulating levels of each. As concentrations of IGF-1 in the body rise so do IGF-1 BP3 and as IGF-1 concentrations fall so do IGF-BP3 levels. Recent scientific evidence points out that the reason for IGF-1 BP3 levels rising due to increased levels of IGF-1 isn’t to inhibit too much hyperplasia or muscle growth (or basically to adhere to your genetic code) but instead to increase the half-life of circulating IGF-1. Unbound IGF-1 has a half life of around 20 minutes, where as when it’s bound to IGF-1 BP3 the half life is extended to around ~24 hours. This is why there is so much excitement surrounding LR3 IGF-1 and now MGF.
Although the exact pathways for muscle growth through the IGF-1 axis aren’t directly known or fully understood, a basic understanding has been established (see flow chart below) and common mechanisms are currently being discovered. It is thought that following muscle damage, circulating levels of IGF-1 are spliced towards MGF, which in turn signal muscle damage and begin to signal for increased nuclei/satellite cell production needed for mitosis and repair of the muscle. As seen in the graph below MGF levels are at their peak 2-4 days following muscle activity and begin to decline rapidly afterwards. IGF-1 levels begin to rise at the same time MGF levels begin to fall, around day 4, and it is though that IGF-1 completes the repairs by drastically increasing protein synthesis, increasing insulin sensitivity, and increasing muscle hyperplasia (the actually increase in the amount of muscle cells, not just the enlargement of muscle cells known as hypertrophy). Although many have stated that hyperplasia is impossible without exogenous use of IGF-1, this is a somewhat false statement; a better statement would be that IGF-1 induced hyperplasia occurs at a VERY slow rate naturally since at any given time less than 1% of all IGF-1 circulating in the blood is unbound from IGF-1 BP3. One must also know that despite IGF-1’s effects on muscle hyperplasia and the increased rate at which it occurs when using exogenous LR3 IGF-1, the overall results that are seen can often be seen at their greatest a decent amount of time post cycle. This occurs due to the fact that newly made muscle fibers are not matured instantly during the process of hyperplasia. Instead, these cells must go through the process of hypertrophy (increase in muscle fiber size) before they mature and become enlarged, another exciting reason to use a combination of MGF and LR3 IGF-1. This is the process of body recomposition that people talk so much about on the boards. You can technically work around your genetic limit and move past it.
Now that all of this basic knowledge of IGF-1 and MGF has been seen we can attempt to set up cycles based off of it. Actual dosing protocols for these growth factors (not including hGH) is quite difficult because unlike hormones such as T3 that can be tested for and, therefore, dosed according to circulating levels, it is almost impossible to detect how much MGF is released following muscle loading or how much of a spliced variant such as LR3 IGF-1 needs to be dosed to prevent antibody production or down regulation of receptors since LR3 IGF-1 doesn’t occur naturally in the body (except under freak splicing caused by lactic acid, which is a rare occurrence). This leads us into human testing based off abstract results by brave guinea pigs looking for that extra edge. Although great results have been seen dosing LR3 IGF-1 at 60-120mcg daily following intense exercise, results begin to taper off after around 4 weeks and down regulation of IGF-1 receptors and IGF-1 antibody production is currently thought to be the culprit. This leads one to believe that following a lower dosage scheme for a longer amount of time would be the way to go. It seems that not many people are willing to attempt a cycle consisting of 10-20mcg daily of LR3 IGF-1 due to the cost of LR3 IGF-1 being anywhere from $115-$200 ***ending on the source and many feel that a lower dosage would be a waste since “instant” results are not seen. Since hGH has been said to contribute most of its effects thanks to increased IGF-1 production, the level of IGF-1 produced by administrating exogenous hGH has to be extremely small compared to the amounts currently being injected, which is probably why exogenous hGH results last indefinitely, as seen by many people who use it year round. This would be one reason for lower dosage of IGF-1 to be used. An alternative camp says shorter cycles of higher dosages are more important since they want to rapidly increase the rate of muscle hypertrophy/hyperplasia before side effects and blunting effects are seen.
MGF dosages have also been widely debated. Although dosages are currently ranging from 20-100+ mcg injected bilaterally following intense exercises, you have to once again think to yourself how much MGF this is compared to the amount your body is naturally producing. If only less than 1% of IGF-1 is circulating through your blood unbound and MGF is produced from splicing IGF-1 into MGF than the amount relative to the 100mcg that people are currently administering is an extremely massive quantity. However, before you consider this a waste to inject this amount of exogenous MGF, it might be a good idea to use these concentrations after all, since the muscle could ultimately be extremely over trained, hitting much more of the muscle and causing greater damage to more muscle fibers and still be able to recover in time for the next workout due increased nuclei/satellite cell production. Add LR3 IGF-1 to the mix and you have a potent combination of recover and repair that your body uses itself after intense exercise. Since the cost of MGF is currently ~$100 per mg and the effects, unlike LR3 IGF-1, are localized, one should limit its use to 1 or maybe 2 lagging body parts per cycle to get the max effect. After review of all the evidence and scientific data it would seem logical to set up a dosage scheme such as the following although this has not be experimentally verified yet and there could be potentially better ways of dosing and cycling.

MGF + LR3 IGF-1 Dosage Scheme (following intense loading of lagging muscle group)

Day 1
Pre Workout- 20-50mcg total MGF
Post Workout- 20-50mcg x 2 MGF (left and right sides of lagging muscle) following workout

Day 2
Morning- 20mcg LR3 IGF-1 and 20-50mcg x 2 in lagging muscle group
Late afternoon- 20mcg LR3 IGF-1

Day 3 and 4
Morning- 30mcg LR3 IGF-1
Late Afternoon- 30mcg LR3 IGF-1

This is a great way to kick start a lagging muscle group with high dosages of potent growth factors. This dosage scheme follows the graph below, which is the body’s natural way of repairing muscle, just with much higher dosages. This dosage scheme also seems logical to prevent too much down regulation of receptors. Although there is no scientific data that backs up administering MGF pre workout, abstract results from various people indicate that better gains and quicker recovery times were observed, possibly due to the body ramping up satellite cell production around the same time as the workout has begun, so repairs occur faster since MGF takes time to ramp up increased nuclei/satellite cell production.

MGF Solo dosing:
There seem to be many schools of thought. Post workout is generally agreed on, but include a number of variations. The amount of Mechano Growth Factor administered differs greatly (from 20mcg – 100+mcg). While ultimately one dose doesn’t fit everyone’s needs, excessive amounts of MGF (without exogenous IGF-1 supplementation) have not yet proven to provide better results.
Below are some of the tried dosing protocols and their explanations. If possible, links have been provided to Logs of that particular dosing schedule and/or discussion on that particular method.


Post workout Only:
Description: Simply injecting Mechano-Growth Factor into the worked muscle after training. Your body expresses MGF in response to mechanical overload (micro trauma to muscle tissue). MGF is responsible for repair (by means of activating satellite cells to begin to donate (replicate) nuclei. These nuclei are then used to repair the damaged tissue. MGF is also responsible for muscle adaptation (hypertrophy). The reasoning behind this method is simple. Greater MGF expression leads to a greater response in muscle adaptation because the body thinks more damage has been caused then there actually is.


Post Workout +
(plus X days after)
Description: Similar to Post workout only, with MGF administration continued for a number of days afterwards. The reasoning here is supported by the bodies natural ability to express MGF longer then one day post workout. Increasing the amount of MGF in the trained muscle beyond the initial post workout injection should elicit a greater response for a longer time. It is important to note that at this time it is not known how long MGF (the Peptide) survives or remains active once injected. The length of time one would administer MGF post workout ***ends on many things unique to the user (recovery time, usage costs, diet…)


Pre/post/split+
(x hours pre w/o, immediately after workout and following morning)
Description: This theory differs in regards to the above mentioned. MGF is administered hours BEFORE working the muscle. A post workout injection is also administered, and one the following morning (or about 12 hours after the post workout injection). The amount of MGF is not increased, rather user would split the dose used, using half a number of hours before exercise of the muscle, and the other half is to be used post workout. The 3rd dose would be a normal “full” dose 12 hours later. Thus method uses the same amount of peptide as the Post workout + protocol does (assuming MGF is administered the day after training and then ceased).
The reasoning behind this protocol is believed to be that the pre-workout injection a few hours before training activates the satellite cells to donate their nuclei. Since there is not yet muscle damage, the donated nuclei will increase in number. This increase before muscle trauma gives a “head start” in the repair process via having already pre-made, available cells the second damage occurs to the muscle, speeding recovery (and/or increased training ability).

[Adam F]

Hope this helps Bro GL, and be safe

[Adam F]

Heres a update on what quote: Anthony Roberts replied to me.

Here's what the article says:

"Well, in talking with bodybuilders and other athletes, I’m finding that the magic starts with these drugs at about 80-100mcgs, which is injected into the primary muscle trained in the preceding workout- half going into that muscle on one side of the body, the other half going into the mirror image of that muscle on the other side. "

I now think that 100mcg of IGF and 2x that amount of MGF is optimal.