What's the latest science on bodybuilding ?

[BlackJack]

I have been reading very interesting stuff on new substances like beta 3-adrenergic recepetor agonists, peptides and more. I can definitely see that we are about to see new science in bodybuilding very soon. I am but yet to explore what's this all about but I found a few topics here on stuff like - L-796568, CL 316243, Solabegron. Some of these are available on the market but for example 50mg of CL 316243 costs 630 euro and you need about 1500mg per day so I don't think its really available.

Then there's Leptin, Ghrelin, I can see some people are already taking these. For some reason I'm always interested in the latest and willing to experiment with myself so I love new information.

Can you share a bit of your knowledge with me. It would be great if we had a topic that discussed experimental substances and the possible future of bodybuilding.

Thanks.

[banana joose]

That's a good topic for discussion.

As far as I'm concerned, Leptin has a limited role in the male side of bodybuilding. Most of us rely on a steady, heavy appetite to push for the next level. And really, GHRP's are ghrelin mimetics, so we've got that hormone covered. But a couple months ago I attempted for the first time in my life to lose weight. So I cut my calories in half, upped the cardio, and felt like I was starving to death. I suppose in this application Leptin would have made this endeavor more tolerable.

We can look back only a couple years and see that Follistatin and Myostatin Propeptides were at the research point, and similar to the CL, portions were small and astronomically expensive. So hopefully it's only a matter of time that enough research can deem these new thermogenics safe for human consumption (or at least "for research purposes only").

I'm looking into these B3-adr agonists, so maybe I can have some intelligent input after a bit of reading. But in the meantime, who woulda thought that bladder control would have anything to do with thermogenesis? haha

[BlackJack]

Well I'm attempting some old experiments by Dan Duchaine and colleagues. It consists of two parts.
- First one is supplementing myself with selenium and flavin to keep the deiodinase enzyme and respectively the T3 cycle intact.
- Second one is a mix of angiotensin II inhibitors (Captopril + Losartan) + AI (Arimidex) + Clen and Large doses of Vit C in order to down-regulate Alpha 2 receptors on fat cells and up-regulate beta-2 adrenergic receptors. I also take Ephedrine, Caffeine, Yohimbine, Synephrine and Aspirin every now and then.

I just started in conjunction with the Body Opus diet, so I'll keep in touch with the results.

Another question though. Do you think IGF-1 helps with lipolysis ? If yes I'd rather swap arimidex for aromasin to benefit from increased IGF levels too.

After I'm done cutting I will try Insulin for the first time and there is this IGF-1ec (MGF) that I am also very interested in. These are not so new though. Not planning to mix the insulin and the igf-1 of course. Seems like IGF-1 LR3 and MGF are a good combo.

Now that Joose mentioned Follistatin, I am eager to try that as well.

New research on DNP shows its ability to inhibit TSH if taken for a few days immediately after an AAS cycle thus solving the T3 catabolic rebound effect and dramatically increasing the lean weight kept after a cycle.

It's too bad we have to fight our genes in order to look good. For some reason our body is hardwired to keep the fat and inhibit excess muscle growth.

[banana joose]

Wow. I'm not sure I can keep up with this haha.

From what I've found in my research so far, although Igf-1 isn't directly linked to lipolysis, Igf-2 is. But my head is spinning over this CL-316,243 so we can save that discussion for another time perhaps. haha.

I've been reading up on some research trials of this CL-316,243. From the initial testing and results, it sounds very promising. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find much about human trials, but they are there, primarily at this point studying it's effects on insulin. At first I thought it was funny that a drug being studied for treatment of overactive bladder would also be considered for fat loss, but it makes sense. Turns out that this drug would work in more than one way to combat obesity.

First, it affects leptin through control of bladder. Urination flow and frequency can play a large role in the leptin response. Leptin receptors are expressed in the kidneys, and leptin is excreted through urine, therefore an increase in urination frequency would mean less activation of leptin receptors. This would mean that CL would play a significant role in combating diet induced obesity by controlling hunger. And in rats it has shown to reduce white adipose tissue, and activate brown adipose tissue and systematic metabolism. But wait, there's more....

Through another pathway it has been shown to be effective in the treatment of genetic obesity due to it's thermogenic properties. In the case of genetic obesity, a B3 ADR agonist has no affect on leptin excretion or expression. However, it has shown (in rats) to have a positive effect on both obesity and diabetes. But like I said, it works as a thermogenic also, which is why it can aid in genetic obesity.

In these studies of rats, both genetic obesity and diet induced obesity, CL-316,243 has shown to reduce body mass without affecting food intake. IMO this could be an incredible breakthrough in thermogenics, BUT could be dangerously classified as a miracle fat loss drug.

References:
Effect of CL-316,243, a thermogenic beta 3-agon... [Am J Physiol. 1994] - PubMed - NCBI
Treatment with CL 316,243, a 3-adrenoceptor agonist, reduces serum leptin in rats with diet- or aging-associated obesity, but not in Zucker rats with genetic (fafa) obesity
Anti-obesity effect of CL 316,243, a highly specific

[BlackJack]

BUT could be dangerously classified as a miracle fat loss drug.

What you say is absolutely right, however I believe that no matter how much you try to educate society on biochemistry, anatomy, dieting, nutritioning etc. every now and then you'll get the occasional "Fuck it, I'll swallow the whole bottle" guy and then stuff is said. FDA, AMA etc. And I think that's what happened with DNP actually. I can feel there is a very strong negative feedback whenever I talk about it so I'll avoid it.

There is something else interesting I found though. While it's true that CL-316,243 might be the new big thing I want to mention a few things that are already available and easy to find. Now as I said before I decided to start gradually blocking my Alpha 2a adrenoreceptors for various reasons. For someone who doesn't care for being leaner than 10%bf that's probably overkill. In reality using ACE inhibitors along with Ephedrine, Clenbuterol or Anadrol and other agents that can cause mild to severe hypertension is actually beneficial, healthier and anabolic, can prevent a lot of cardiac complications as well. As we know our body has a few defense mechanisms that it uses to prevent stored fat being used for energy.
First - Insulin (While on a low calorie diet like bodyopus, insulin receptors are down-regulated so I don't really care about that one)
Second - Alpha 2a Adrenoreceptors. These are fat promoting agents and are the main reason for stubborn fat. They simply don't allow some fat cells to shrink. Once I destroy them they come back again. Long story short norepinephrine is what is known to be the main player behind lipolysis. However both Alpha 2a and Beta 2 receptors react to norepinephrine, so in order for a fat cell to shrink I need to have more beta 2 receptors than alpha 2a on it or else I'll just waste valuable time and muscle and no fat will be lost. Alpha 2a receptors need angiotensin in order to reproduce though so...
Third - Angiotensin. There is an angiotensin inhibitor Losartan which was suggested in order to block angiotensin. The problem with it is that it causes angiotensin receptor upregulation and the body fights it by creating even more angiotensin. I found out about a newer, better drug called Telmisartan which not only acts as a powerful angiotensin blocker but also down regulates angiotensin receptors.
Fourth - There is this last defense on fat called Peptide YY. This I believe cannot be dealt with as its actions are so complex that it functions as an apetite suppresor and fat retainer at the same time. Nevertheless by the time I have to deal with Peptide YY I will be lean enough (theoretically, as this is all fiction, right ?).

There are other problems too like the deiodinase enzyme down regulation etc.

So far so good. I decided to try all this by myself (in my mind.. right ?). For this experiment I would need a lot of drugs. I don't suggest you try this at all it's dangerous too. In fact if you want to, you do it on your own risk:
- ECA Stack (Ephedrine, Caffeine, Aspirine)
- Captopril
- Telmisartan
- Antisedan
- Milrinone (very very hard to find. only through clinical paths and very powerful and dangerous)
- Clenbuterol (Both oral and injectable)
- T4
- Aromasin
- Yohimbine
- Theophylline (Both oral and injectable)
- Some easy stuff (Selene, Glutamine, Vit C, NAC, Gluthatione)

I like the BodyOpus diet but any of the famous low-calorie diet will be enough to down-regulate insulin receptors and deal with defense number one.

In regards to the second defense I started the following scheme in the beginning of my diet.
1-14w: Aromasin 12.5mg/ed (Why ? Estrogen promotes alpha 2a ar upregulation)
1-12w: Oral Yohimbine 9-10mg/ed on empty stomach, preferably pre-workout
1-16w: Captopril 25-75mg/ed (depends on individual tolerance. at 75mg I did get a bad case of hypotension. If I was on a bulking cycle with anadrol, I wouldn't feel it though since anadrol can cause serious hypertension and they balance each other) Now this acts really slow, takes about 2 months to reach full potential, on top of that I need to take it on empty stomach one hour before a meal. Real pain in the ass.
1-16w: Telmisartan 20-80mg/ed (Since this is taken in conjunction with Captopril and is also a hypertension medication there is a high risk of dangerously low blood pressure. I only take it at the lowest possible dose since I went through a shock once with Losartan and it's not nice to have BP 70:40 with 160 heart rate for 8 hours. It's one of these moments when you remember how precious life is, but once you are ok you start being reckless again. Go figure...)
1-12w: Masteron (Haven't tried this yet but this will further help decrease estrogen levels and might slightly raise blood pressure which is something I want while using a lot of hypertension medication)
---- Near week 3 or 4 I want to start up-regulating my Beta 2 Adrenergic receptors in addition to down-regulating the alpha 2a ones.
This is done by taking oral clenbuterol at 100mcg empty stomach pre-workout (2w on/2w off)
Also I want to add the ECA stack here for the first time since it will increase my cAMP levels and slightly raise my blood pressure. Plus ECA stack will promote norepinephrine in blood which is now good since alpha 2a receptors are less than beta 2 and fat cells will start to shrink.

By the end of Month 1 my deiodinaze enzyme is almost non-existent due to calorie restriction and this is one of the other reasons why any diet seems to be less effective after a certain period of time. There is a suggestion to take Calcium, Potassium and Sodium Phosphates in order to replenish liver ATP and fix T3 cycle but since Captopril and Telmisartan increase Potassium levels one shouldn't attempt to take any Potassium or risks hyperkalemia. So I do this thing.

5-8w: T4 100mcg/ed
5-8w: Selene 1mcg per kg bodyweight/ed
5-8w: Glutamine 20g/ed
5-8w: NAC 350mg/ed
5-8w: Glutathione 200mg/ed

This simple stack seems to up-regulate deiodinase enzyme and fix the T4 => T3 conversion. Note: Taking synthetic T3 won't do the job. It's also good to have one or two days weekly where I increase my carb intake by 800kCal but not going over maintenance level at the same time. This will further help thyroid function.

Now this is the last part of the experiment. Week 8. At this point I should only have a few spots of stubborn fat left to deal with so I start spot reducing. That's right it is possible, even though the majority of bodybuilding experts won't agree it's acheivable with a few exotic drugs.

8-12w: Injectable Clen. SubQ injections wherever I have stubborn fat left. I wouldn't go over a total of 200mcg for all injected sites + oral intake.
8-12w: Oral clen 100mcg/ed 2w on 2w off, before workout, empty stomach. Powerful beta 2 up regulator.
9-12w: This is where I start injecting subq with injectable Caffeine, Milrinone and Theophylline. This is to increase cAMP levels in fat cells and literally destroy them. Now Milrinone is a very hard to get and I mean very. It's scheduled and it's also very very powerful and dangerous. In fact they use it in hospitals for just one or two days on their patients so I would never inject it IV or in large doses or I risk heart failure. Milrinone and Caffeine will act as phosphodiestrase inhibtors and thus prevent cAMP from being destroyed. I also take oral caffeine here.
10-12w: This is where I start injecting Antisedan and taking some Oral Yohimbine again to down regulate any local alpha 2a receptors left unharmed by Captopril and Telmisartan. Antisedan is veterinary drug used to get dogs and horses out of anesthesia. It's a good and safe way for me to reduce alpha 2a receptors on site.
11-12w: Last but not least in order to have more cAMP in fat I want to block adenosine. I take ECA stack here again as aspirin has anti-adenosine effects and some oral theophylline again.

Weeks 12-14: DNP 200mg/ed (Why ? Why ? I said no more DNP). At this point my TSH and T3 is badly supressed. If I just pop out of my cutting cycle T3 will rebound and I'll sacrifice lean tissue. DNP at low doses will suppress TSH and allow for gradual T3 up-regulation.

At that point If I started at 15% I would be at 3-4% body fat. If on a ketonic diet - Ketones will spare a lot of muscle tissue as they can crosss the blood brain barrier and the body wouldn't convert protein to glucose for brain energy.

Usually right after week 3-4, I will be getting more and more fats in my blood to use as energy. If I don't use em up they'll just be redeposited somewhere else. This is why at this point I can handle serious cardio and weight training. Instead of 130 pulse I would aim for 160-180 pulse while keeping in mind that I'm probably hypotensive of course.

This is to no degree my discovery. As far as I am concerned it's all Dan Duchaine and colleagues, but I never saw anyone else attempt it before, plus it was written in the late 90s, so I tuned it up quite a bit, plus I will provide personal experience etc. Feel free to comment, I'll be glad to hear from you on this supra-physiological approach to extreme fat loss while minimizing muscle loss.

P.S.
To all the guys out there who criticized me on following Dan Duchaine advice too much and recommending dropping Nolvadex for good, I would like to remind you that it was Duchaine himself who found Nolvadex back in the days and recommended it for gyno prevention. It's the 21st century now, so no more nolvadex gentleman, just third generation aromatase inhibitors.

Please do not attempt this. While I like to be the human lab rat for new research, this is absolutely reckless and you shouldn't be. You are probably already lean enough to get any girl you want so why bother

[banana joose]

Uhh...good luck with that? Sounds like overkill to me. I realize that it's harder to shed bf the lower you go, but damn dude. You're really willing to use all that and risk your life to shed some fat? Are you competing at the end of all this? If not, I really don't see the point in this risk. If you log it, then die in the middle, we'll never know if it worked or not.

[JoeHammer]

this is a sick thread- BJ you keeping a log mate? I'd love to follow your results

[markdbg]

as far as muscle building drugs i think it will end with insulin. u can easily add 20lb of pure muscle in a single off season with crazy doses. crazy dose of slin + crazy dose hgh u have mutation. bodybuilders i know have used up to 200 iu of slin and 40iu of gh a day with 5 grams of test plus all the other drugs i dont need to mention. they want to get bigger? eat more and inject more its that simple. with all the hormones they will stay under 8-10% body fat so no need for miracle fat loss drugs. the body can handle great amounts of substance abuse,in the 70s there was a bodybuilder who stayed on 10 grams of gear year round, 3 weeks before comps he was taking 70000mg of androgens. drinking bottles of dbol var anything he could get his hands on. so u wanna get bigger? intake more of everything. altho these days hgh and slin is everything in bodybuilding. steroids are still used at high doses, but not as important as hgh and slin

and ur talking about miracle fatloss drugs. we already have it, its called dnp. u sit and eat cake all day, dont move and ull loose 2-3lb a day. can be very dangerous obviously.

[BlackJack]

this is a sick thread- BJ you keeping a log mate? I'd love to follow your results

I do, PM me for access. I don't want this information public to people who want to impress their girlfriends or get popular at school asap.

as far as muscle building drugs i think it will end with insulin. u can easily add 20lb of pure muscle in a single off season with crazy doses. crazy dose of slin + crazy dose hgh u have mutation. bodybuilders i know have used up to 200 iu of slin and 40iu of gh a day with 5 grams of test plus all the other drugs i dont need to mention. they want to get bigger? eat more and inject more its that simple. with all the hormones they will stay under 8-10% body fat so no need for miracle fat loss drugs. the body can handle great amounts of substance abuse,in the 70s there was a bodybuilder who stayed on 10 grams of gear year round, 3 weeks before comps he was taking 70000mg of androgens. drinking bottles of dbol var anything he could get his hands on. so u wanna get bigger? intake more of everything. altho these days hgh and slin is everything in bodybuilding. steroids are still used at high doses, but not as important as hgh and slin

and ur talking about miracle fatloss drugs. we already have it, its called dnp. u sit and eat cake all day, dont move and ull loose 2-3lb a day. can be very dangerous obviously.

You obviously didn't even read my post as DNP use is already outlined in it and it has much better uses than fat cutting.
- What if I told you there were far more potent muscle builders than GH ? In fact GH is already losing it's fame among professional bodybuilders.
- What if I told you that Insulin is not anabolic at all. It's anti-catabolic, blocks protein catabolism. Insulin alone can only build muscle during periods of glycogen supercompensation and mechanically that is. That is called biophysics.

Saying that you can pop all the pills you want is very stupid and dangerous, because sure you may be able to survive for one or two contests but then you die at the age of 45 so It's not much of an abuse survival is it. Especially now when we are getting more and more evidence that people in the ancient times have far outlived us. Almost any old man that passes the age of 110 starts growing third set of teeth. What does that tell you ? Think.

The more androgens you take the less effective they become. I know combinations of drugs that produce overnight results that you haven't even heard of. Read on calcium channel blockers and ubiquitin-proteasome inhibitors if you are really interested. And then what about the heart. Obviously one must be stupid as f'ck to just open bottles of chemistry and pour them down his throat. Remember Andreas Munzer ? Momo Benaziza ? Why don't you go back and rethink that thought of yours about the enormous amounts of abuse that one's body can endure.

[zi1]

this is crazy my head is spinning around fu... yeah,bj know`s wayy tooo much;/ great thread,one more day one more thing i get into my head from here;]