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Thread: The Official PCT Thread . . . Let's talk

  1. #1
    Hazcat Guest

    Default The Official PCT Thread . . . Let's talk

    There is a lot of controversy surrounding pct and that's because there is no one size fits all post cycle therapy's. It goes beyond, "it's an individual thing" that you hear. It's goes beyond the parroting of 40/40/40/40 that we have all seen on one board or another. We really need to sit down and think about what we're trying to accomplish. Which is to get our body to start producing it's own testosterone again.

    When talking about testosterone the main thing that prevents us from producing it is excess estrogen that comes from the aromatization of large amounts of injected test converting to estrogen. PCT is the simple process of riding out the excess estrogen level. Let's leave the nandrolones out of this equation for right now and discuss the different ways we can deal with estrogen.

    During the discussion try not to throw out what you've heard but don't understand. Let's let this thread delve deep into how people understand the recovery process and how the believe what works well but you have to explain why you believe it works well. I can tell you that AI's alone can very easily lead you to full recovery without any SERM's so keep an open mind. SERM's a great resource too so if you like them explain why. No bashing . . . just an open discussion to help people understand how to recover fully to avoid trt, gyno, and ED issues.

    Now someone throw up a post and let's get started . . .
    Last edited by Hazcat; 10-25-2011 at 01:34 PM.

  2. #2
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    Here is what i like:

    week 1: Aromasin 12.5mg/EOD, Nolvadex; 10mg/day, Formestane; 100mg/day
    week 2: Aromasin 12.5mg/E3D, Nolvadex; 10mg/day, Formestane; 0mg/day
    week 3: Aromasin 12.5mg/E3D, Nolvadex; 10mg/day, Formestane; 100mg/day
    week 4: Aromasin 12.5mg/E4D, Nolvadex; 0mg/day, Formestane; 0mg/day
    week 5: Aromasin 12.5mg/E4D, Nolvadex; 0mg/day, Formestane; 100mg/day
    week 6: Aromasin 12.5mg/E5D, Nolvadex; 0mg/day, Formestane; 0mg/day

    Reasoning: Like Haz said the main thing we have to deal with is estrogen: and what better way to deal with it then stoping its formation at the Aromataze enzyme (AE). Aromasin is a steroidal Aromataze Inhibitor (AI) that binds to the AE blocking testosterone from doing so. This means that testosterone cannot be turned into Estrogen by that enzyme. Aromasin is also knows an a suicidal AI- because unlike Arimidex it stays attached to the AE untill it dies. Essentially every AE aromasin binds to is completely useless and no estrogen will be formed from that spot UNTILL the body produces more AE- a period af about 4-6 days from what i have read.

    The dosing schedual is more frequent at the begining of PCT because it is to be understood that it is at this early stage the level of estrogen will be highest- especially if arimidex has been used as ON cycle AI. Arimidex is not suicidal in nature and will unbind from the AE after a certain period of time. (i do not know what that time is). This means that after discontinuing use of Arimidex there is a good chance of an estrogen rebound from all the AE's that are now free and because there will likely be alot of synthetic testosterone still floating around (in the case of long esters- not so much short). The Dosage of Aromasin is based on studies that have shown 25mg/day to reduce estrogen upto 95% after 2 weeks of administration. This is much too suppressive so i deemed that half the dose at half (or less) the dosing frequency will do an outstanding job at reducing estrogen to a reasonable range (i do not have a number for this). The dosing schedual gets less and less frequent as PCT goes on to compensate for there being less and less synthetic testosterone still available for aromatization due to its Half-Life.

    Another reaons i like aromasin for PCT is because when it is broken down by our bodies one or more of the metabolites formed are believed to have some small androgenic properties. A welcome addition to our own lacking androgens at this point. This is in addition to the fact that Aromasin lowers SHBG and increases IGF levels aswell. All things we could certainly use while our own testosterone slowly recovers. Aroamsin also will not negitavely impact cholesterol levels like non steoridal AI's do.

    As a finaly point, because Aromasin is a type 1 Steroidal AI, when used in conjunction with nolvadex there appears to be little or no reduced effectiveness- like that is seen with arimidex and letrozole.There is also no cross-over tolerance experienced when switching between type 1 and type 2 AI's- perfect for switching from arimidex-aromasin when transitioning to PCT

    I have included Nolvadex in the PCT MAINLY for its properties at increasing LH's (Leutenizing Hormone) sensitivity to LHRH (Leutenizing Hormone Releasing Hormone). This "upregulation" means for any given amount of LHRH the LH response will be greater and subsequently trigger a larger release of natural testosterone. 20mg has been shown to increase testosterone levels 150%, i chose half that value because Nolvadex is also very liver toxic, and given the effectiveness of Aromasin for restoring natural testosterone the sides outweigh the benifits at anything more then 10mg/day.

    On a side note Nolvadex is especially important when HCG has been used either ON cycle or for a blast prior to PCT. As HCG mimicks LH's action in the body, when use is discontinued LH exhibits a weaker response to LHRH. Nolvadex increases this response. If HCG was used ON cycle the PCT protocol i listed would be fine. If HCG is blasted at the end Nolvadex should be started the same day as the first HCG dose and then continue into the PCT protocol (assuming HCG dosing begins 10days before the "full" PCT and lasts those 10 days eg. 1,000iu/day for 10 days) for example: After a test E cycle;

    1 week after last pin: 1,000iu HCG/day for 10 days WITH Nolvadex 10mg/day
    Day after last HCG dose begin full PCT protocol as stated at top of page


    Formestane is an awesome drug-and is the main ingredient in the drug Lentaron. Firstly it is a potent AI, Non suicidal in nature. Secondly it is very slightly anabolic/androgenic- forming 4hydroxytestosterone as a metabolite, not so much to supress HPTA but enough to help us maintain those gains we tried to so hard to make ON cycle. It also increases IGF 1 levels 26% and is shown to STIMULATE HPTA to a similar amount as a regular clomid dosing schedual. I have only included it at every other week because although it is shown to stimulate HPTA it does still form an anabolic/androgenic hormone in our bodies and that to me means we should go with the less is more approach for PCT. (I would use this product at a higher more frequent dose ON cycle though for sure!)

    Thats about it for my views- One thaught i have had to to maintain a more frfequent dosing schedual (and thus blood plasma levels) of aromasin throughout PCT- such as 5mg/day for the duration. The Lower dose shuuld offset the more frequent administration and the more stabel blood plasma levels should allow a lower dose in general to be just as effecetive as opposed to a "burst" every other day or 3rd or 4th etc. This is not proven just a theory of mine.
    Last edited by JoeHammer; 10-25-2011 at 02:35 PM.

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hazcat View Post
    There is a lot of controversy surrounding pct and that's because there is no one size fits all post cycle therapy's. It goes beyond, "it's an individual thing" that you hear. It's goes beyond the parroting of 40/40/40/40 that we have all seen on one board or another. We really need to sit down and think about what we're trying to accomplish. Which is to get our body to start producing it's own testosterone again.

    When talking about testosterone the main thing that prevents us from producing it is excess estrogen that comes from the aromatization of large amounts of injected test converting to estrogen. PCT is the simple process of riding out the excess estrogen level. Let's leave the nandrolones out of this equation for right now and discuss the different ways we can deal with estrogen.

    During the discussion try not to throw out what you've heard but don't understand. Let's let this thread delve deep into how people understand the recovery process and how the believe what works well but you have to explain why you believe it works well. I can tell you that AI's alone can very easily lead you to full recovery without any SERM's so keep an open mind. SERM's a great resource too so if you like them explain why. No bashing . . . just an open discussion to help people understand how to recover fully to avoid trt, gyno, and ED issues.

    Now someone throw up a post and let's get started . . .
    PCT is the process of reestablishing the HPTA while managing estrogen related side effects... most importantly... HPTA and bringing the boys back.

    SERMs will block estrogen receptors, protein receptors in tissues throughout the body, specifically breast tissue. AI's will inhibit the conversion process of excess testosterone to estrogen. You need both Serms and AI for proper PCT.

    Clomid acts like an estrogen causing stimulation of the pituitary, up regulating GNRH recpetors. GNRH is the hormone that hits its receptors telling the pituitary to send out more LH and FSH.

    SERMs are not effective at actually lowering estrogen levels though they can lower estrogen through paracrine signal factors. This means that since the estrogen receptors are being activated, the body does not send out the signal wanting more estrogen, via a negative feedback loop.

  4. #4

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    this time I did used hcg 1000iu/day before pct and it really worked out well
    I like aromasin in pct
    I have quesion for hammer which ai to use during hcg if taking like me (before pct)
    aromasin or adex?
    Currently of cycle

  5. #5
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    In an ideal world, I wouldnt run SERMS, I would run HCG and an AI such as Aromasin, possibly even run a small course of Letro to drop the estro way down before I ran the HCG, then follow it thru with the Asin.
    However in my case, I am gyno prone so I use SERMS plus i dont have ready access to HCG so I'm kinda screwed in that regards.
    I do however and always have, recommend running an AI, preferably Asin thruout PCT, for a week or two past last Serm dose. Gotta keep that Estro down untill the natty test gets up to where it should be. As Haz pointed out, too much Estro inhibits Test production, so thats one of the iggest, i not the biggest issues with pct, getting the estro down and keeping it down for a sustained period, until the natty test gets back enough to do the job itself, ie keeping everything in balance.
    I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, natural, wholesome things that money can buy

  6. #6
    Hazcat Guest

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    These are all great responses. I'd like to see some more thoughts on the topic and also let's have some input on esters and how they affect pct.

  7. #7
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    I found that my last cycle of Prop and Var left me with one hellva "crash" in the first two week sof PCT. They cleared relatively quickly, leaving me with high estro and near zero test. Upping my Asin to 12.5mg ED first week of PCT helped a lot, then I dropped it back to EOD as I slowly came good. By halfway thru week 3 I was coming good.
    However......
    Cycle before last was Test E and Var. PCT was a breeze for me then due to the fact I had to cut it short by a week or so as a result of a torn pec. I started PCT 1 week after last shot of Enan, however in the meantime I ran 1 week of Letro, kind of intuitively I guess to drop the estro waay back. The swapped to Asin for the duration of Pct. I have to be honest and say that I cut the Nolva short , only ran maybe 3 1/2 weeks of it because I felt so damn good, I didnt se the point of running it out the full 5 weeks. Why the big difference? First cycle with fast clearing Esters left me with a "gap" ie my Estro was leading my Test in a big way. Slow clearing Enan Esters left me with more Test in my system for longer, thus less of a "gap", plus the Letro really dropped the Estro levels down to zilch. I was only "down" so to speak for maybe a week or 10 days, then came good.
    In hindsight, if I had acess to HCG (or Triptorellin) I would just run in future for a PCT, a light course of Letro for 1 week, then after that one week, I would be on Asin and run some HCG to get the boys operational. However I would have kept a SERM on hand because as you know, I am gyno prone, so I really need to block the Estro receptors in my gland, at least until I stabilise.
    I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, natural, wholesome things that money can buy

  8. #8
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    Ive never had any issues with ED or loss of gains when running AI's either. Only issue I ever had was damn sore joints a couple of times, then I backed off the AI a little till things got lubricated enough, ie I produced enough estro
    I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, natural, wholesome things that money can buy

  9. #9

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    Danno I had a very similar experience with my short ester cycle consisting of test p, tren a, masteron p, anavar. It felt like I got dropped on my face a week after last pin. Where my long ester cycles seem to "let me down easier" I ran out of tren a and masteron 3 weeks before my last pin of test p. So I thought hcg and Nolva woulda been fine. Well I was def wrong. I actually only felt good for a day or so after my hcg shot, I didn't run the 1000iu for 10 days, i tried a different approach from my research on it, I used 500iu eod for 2 weeks along side Nolva but after I stopped the hcg I felt worse so I'd take another poke of hcg and every shot kinda "brought me back". I used it for another week or so till I ran out and just finished with the Nolva. I was also using SARMs S4 and Osterine as well through pct and thought they may have played a role in a slow recovery by keeping me somewhat supressed as well. I didn't use asin or clomid. I did used adex as ai throughout cycle and pct tho. Next pct I wanna do similar to what you have layed out, run a short Letro course, then start 1000iu hcg with 10mg of Nolva for 10 days, then switch to asin and Nolva for the duration. I also am gyno prone.

  10. #10
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    Sounds like a good plan bro, I would do the same but HCg aint easy here atm. I'll scout around and see what I can find, plenty of time B4 my next cycle though
    I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, natural, wholesome things that money can buy

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