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Thread: HCG use during cycle!!!

  1. #1
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    Default HCG use during cycle!!!

    I found this on another forum and thought you guys would like it!! Great Read!!!



    Eric M. Potratz has developed his education in the field of endocrinology and performance enhancement through years of research, counseling, and real world experience. Over the past five years he has been a private consultant for hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders alike, and is the founder & president of Primordial Performance.

    post-cycle-Therapy is a must upon cessation of steroid use. Many great Post Cycle Therapy protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better, and I intend to show you the most effective way to recover from AAS. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the misunderstanding and misuse of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hcg) and show you the most efficient way to use hcg for the fastest and most complete recovery.

    hcg unraveled -

    Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hcg) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to increase testosterone levels. (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone.

    When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) - All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hcg ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hcg should be used after a cycle, during post-cycle-Therapy. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hcg is ran during a cycle.

    Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hcg to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using hcg at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960's) hcg studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hcg dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function - but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won't regain full testicular function.

    One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given level of LH or hcg stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hcg stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hcg stimulation will trigger natural testosterone production - and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production. (recovering full testosterone production is a topic for another article)

    To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6)

    Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hcg stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) So do not judge how "shutdown" you are by testicular size!



    The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hcg post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hcg, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids. (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hcg at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. (7) Another study with men using low dose steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of hcg treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production) 20

    In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hcg being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn't use it on cycle.

    Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu hcg administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hcg. (2) It is important that low-dose hcg is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it's important to discontinue the hcg before you start post-cycle-Therapy so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body's own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used)

    Based off the above information, an optimal dose of hcg during the cycle would be 250iu every 4 days, or as a less desirable alternative, once a week shot of 500iu. Keep in mind, that the half-life of hcg is 3-4 days, while the half-life of LH is only 1-2 hours. Considering this difference in excretion time, it is best to space each dose of hcg at least 4 days apart for the optimal "peak and valley" replication. However, going more than 7 days between each hcg shot may promote increase the rate of desensitization from lack of LH or hcg stimulation.

    If you are starting hcg late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hcg "kick starting" dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu hcg dose) Remember, since the testes will be desensitized later in a cycle, you will require a higher dose. Also, the maximum daily dose of hcg should not exceed 5000iu, and 4-7 days must be taken off between each shot. Generally, a higher dose will require a longer off period between each shot. (eg., 2500iu = 7 days between each shot)

    Note: If following the on cycle hcg protocol, hcg should NOT be used for PCT.

    Recap -

    For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 250iu every 4 day starting 14 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hcg two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hcg about the same time as your last testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hcg about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels. This will initiate a strong LH and FSH surge from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn't begin until you are off hcg since your body will not release its own LH until the hcg has cleared the system.

    In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing hcg during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash.

  2. #2
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    Found another great article:

    Pharmaceutical Name: Testosterone (as Enanthate)
    Chemical structure: 4-androstene-3-one,17beta-ol
    Effective dose: 250-1000 mg/week


    Testosterone is the prime male androgen in the body, and as such still the best possible mass builder in the world. It has a high risk of side-effects because it readily converts to a more androgenic form (DHT) in androgen responsive tissues and forms estrogen quite easily. But these characteristics also provide it with its extreme anabolic tendencies. On the one hand estrogen increases growth hormone output, glucose utilization, improves immunity and upgrades the androgen receptor, while on the other hand a testosterone/DHT combination is extremely potent at activating the androgen receptor and eliciting major strength and size gains. While not always the most visually appealing result, there is no steroid on earth that packs on mass like testosterone does.

    Like testosterone cypionate, enanthate is a single-ester and long-acting form of the base steroid testosterone. To me, its slightly better value for money than the aforementioned because its ester is only 7 instead of 8 carbons in length. Where that doesn't really change much in terms of release and blood concentration for users who inject on a weekly basis, that does mean that less of the weight is ester and more of it is testosterone. When taking an amount of an esterified steroid, that amount in terms of weight is a combination of the ester and the steroid. Naturally the longer the ester is, the more of the weight it takes up. So its safe to state that 500 mg of enanthate contains more testosterone than does 500 mg of cypionate. Not that this slight difference will be noted on a weekly pattern really, but its enough for me to give it a slight edge if given the choice. Although, as stated with cypionate, your choice between enanthate and cypionate is best based on availability. These are a much better choice than sustanon 250 or omnadren, which are blends of different testosterone esters, due to their irregular release. Nonetheless these versions still appear to be more popular with most users for some reason. Before you compare these to shorter esters under the pretense that even more of the weight would be testosterone, for bulking purposes the release pattern and injection pattern of an enanthate or cypionate is more fitting than that of say, a propionate ester. Enanthate and cypionate are very close in those terms, hence the comparison is possible.

    A long-acting testosterone ester may be the best for all your mass-building needs, but its not an easy product to use. Because of the extreme length of action (3-4 weeks) one cannot easily solve occurring problems by simply discontinuing the product, as it will continue to act and aggravate side-effects over extended periods of time. In regards to damage control and post-cycle therapy, some familiarity with the use of ancillary drugs is required prior to using a long-acting testosterone product. Nolvadex and Proviron will come in very handy in such cases and post-cycle HCG and clomid or Nolvadex will be required as well to help restore natural testosterone. Frequency of side-effects is probably highest with this type of product.

    While most will tell you it's a waste to not use testosterone, as it will take ages longer to build proper mass, these are all points to take into consideration. Testosterone is a product that is heavily used by beginners and veterans alike and justly so. Those who fear they may never understand the proper use of ancillary drugs, may want to suck it up and invest in some propionate or suspension testosterones instead. These are much shorter acting and easier to control, but they do need to be injected once every two days, whereas this type of ester will impart great gains with a single weekly injection. Something to keep in mind.

    Testosterone is the most powerful compound there is, so obviously its perfectly fine to use it by itself. With a long-acting ester like Enanthate doses of 500-1000 mg per week are used with very clear results over a 10 week period. If you've ever seen a man swell up with sheer size, then testosterone was the cause of it. But testosterone is nonetheless often stacked. Due to the high occurrence of side-effects, people will usually split up a stack in testosterone and a milder component in order to obtain a less risky cycle, but without having to give up as much of the gains. Primobolan, Equipoise and Deca-Durabolin are the weapons of choice in this matter.

    Deca seems to be the most popular, probably because of its extremely mild androgenic nature. But Deca being one of the highest risks for just about every other side-effects, I probably wouldn't advise it. If Deca is used, generally a dose of 200-400 mg is added to 500-750 mg of testosterone per week. Primobolan is sometimes opted for, and can be handy since it doesn't aromatize, which will make the total level of water retention and fat gain a lot less than with more test or with Deca for example. Unfortunately, its mild nature combined with a lack of estrogen make Primobolan a very poor mass builder. Again, doses of 300-400 mg are used. I would actually suggest a higher dose, but with the current prices for Primo I don't think it would be very popular. My personal preference goes out to Equipoise. Androgenically its not that much stronger than Deca because it has next to no affinity for the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme and is only half as androgenic as testosterone. Its twice as strong as Deca, mg for mg, and has a lower occurrence of side-effects. It has some estrogen, but not a whole lot so it actually tends to lean a person out rather than bloat him up as Deca will. It also increases appetite, which promotes gains, and improves aerobic performance, which may be wishful as testosterone normally has an opposite effect.

    Of course testosterone Enanthate can be stacked with any number of compounds apart from these, but these make the best match. When stacking with testosterone, one needs to look at what the other compound can bring. Either it has a characteristic that testosterone doesn't have, or its nominally safer. The testosterone will bring all the mass, so adding another steroid to enhance mass alone, is futile. More testosterone is the best remedy for that.

    One needs to be familiar with a host of other compounds when using long-acting testosterone esters however. First of all, anti-estrogens. The rate of aromatization of testosterone is quite great, so water retention and fat gain are a fact and gyno is never far off. If problems occur one is best to start on 20 mg of Nolvadex per day and stay on that until problems subside. I wouldn't stay on it for a whole cycle, as it may reduce the gains. In terms of an aromatase blocker, testosterone is one of the few compounds where Proviron may actually be preferred over arimidex. The proviron will not only reduce estrogen and can be used for extended time on a testosterone cycle, it will also bind with great affinity to sex-hormone binding proteins in the blood and will allow for a higher level of free testosterone in the body, thus improving gains. Usually 50-100 mg will suffice, the lower end is preferred for maximal results since estrogen plays a key role in gains, but those more worried about estrogen should opt for a higher dose.

    For those worried about androgenic side-effects (hair loss, prostate hypertrophy, deepening of voice), one can utilize the hair loss treatment finasteride. This blocks the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme and stops the conversion of testosterone to the more androgenic compound DHT. I'm not a big fan of this, because DHT reduces estrogenic bloat, increases free levels of testosterone and is a very potent androgen that is 3-4 times stronger than testosterone. Those worried about hair loss however, may want to opt for arimidex as their anti-aromatase, since Proviron is a form of DHT after all. After a cycle, mainly due to the high aromatization and increased levels of estradiol in the blood after discontinuing, natural testosterone levels will be severely suppressed. This means steps need to be taken to assure the quick return of natural testosterone, or we stand to lose a lot of the gains we made while using testosterone. Since it's a non-toxic, potent mass-builder its mostly used in long 10-12 week cycles. So some testicular shrinkage will have occurred too. Its very important that people see that HCG and Nolvadex/clomid are essential as a post-cycle therapy, and that both are equally important in achieving our goal. HCG injections should be started the last week of the cycle and continued for 3-4 weeks, using 1500-3000 IU every 5-6 days. HCG will act as an alternative to LH and start the endogenous testosterone cycle, thereby increasing testicle size once again. Then about 2 weeks after the last shot of testosterone is given, Nolvadex/Clomid cycle should be started. 40 mg of Nolva or 150 mg of Clomid per day for two weeks, followed by two more weeks with either 20 mg of Nolva or 100 mg of Clomid per day should be adequate. Always remember that HCG is suppressive of natural testosterone itself and should be discontinued at least 2 weeks prior to finishing Nolvadex/Clomid.

  3. #3
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    the first article seems to value HCG during AAS cycle rather than after? anyone got any thoughts on that?

  4. #4
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    "The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hcg post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hcg, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids. (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hcg at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size."


    "In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hcg being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn't use it on cycle."

    I wouldn't exactly call any of this evidence....I'm not saying that running hcg during cycle is a bad idea but there is a limit to the length one should run it. After a while it loses its effectiveness too because the bodies own leydig cells will stop producing LH, just like the testis stop producing test when on cycle. I wouldn't run it longer than 10 weeks at 250iu 3 times per week.

    The statement about administering 4500iu post cycle is pretty ambiguous. How was this administered? I take it they did it in one shot and that simply won't work. In addition 4500iu is on the low side but it would still elicit LH response. The second statement about administering 10000iu E3D for 12 weeks and not being able to return testicular size is bullshit.... For starters no one in there right mind would run 10000iu E3D for 12 weeks. Estrogen levels would be through the roof and would likely cause testicular atrophy in itself.

    I have proof from my own pre and post cycle blood works that 1000iu ED for 10 days post cycle followed by 4 weeks of nolvadex restores normal test production. I have used HCG during cycle and post cycle (different cycles) and I believe post cycle works best when running long cycles. I would like to see the actual clinical studies that were done in relation to this article.
    The statements contained herein have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. The consumer comments and experiences relayed herein may not be typical. Your experience may vary.



    Disclaimer: The advice I provide is based on experience and/or research and should not be considered professional medical advice. It is best to confirm any potential use of a drug or possible medical condition with a licensed doctor.

  5. #5
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    Is HCG already synthetic or do they still extract it from pregnant mamma's urine ?

  6. #6
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    I don't think there is synthetic HCG. I believe, but could be wrong, that it is made from clean catch (sterile urine). It can also be taken from the placenta post birth I believe. I try not to think about these things to much. I can just see some pregnant Chinese prostitute pissing in a cup....
    The statements contained herein have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. The consumer comments and experiences relayed herein may not be typical. Your experience may vary.



    Disclaimer: The advice I provide is based on experience and/or research and should not be considered professional medical advice. It is best to confirm any potential use of a drug or possible medical condition with a licensed doctor.

  7. #7
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    It's not about sterility. The problem with natural hormones is that they carry genetic diseases. That's one of the reasons they stopped extracting GH from cadavres.
    No it's not a big deal. I mean we eat GMO, we breathe acidic air, we use microwaves purging or brains, I say f**k it let's inject some piss as well right ?

  8. #8
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    LOL, straight from the stream....
    The statements contained herein have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. The consumer comments and experiences relayed herein may not be typical. Your experience may vary.



    Disclaimer: The advice I provide is based on experience and/or research and should not be considered professional medical advice. It is best to confirm any potential use of a drug or possible medical condition with a licensed doctor.

  9. #9
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    Thanks florida - thats exactly why i put this post up. i had a guess you would be able to critique it for us.

    you know what guys... i'm actually enjoying the pre-roid route - its a big learning curve but i'm starting to assemble all the pieces (slowly). Its important for me to fully understand what i'm about to do before i do it. its like being back at uni lol

  10. #10
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    oh and i see your point blackjack - you always here the bad things about steroids but it paints a clearer when you analyse some of the other sh*t going around (n then put it into perspective).
    Tho just recently two young guys from my home town committed suicide... both using. I have been wondering about this lately (the psychological effects of roid use). Do you guys know much about this. i would like to believe that the detrimental psychological effects are brought about thro abusing rather than through educated use. is this the case? or are the psych effects simply a natural side for some people? I think i'll start a new post with this question!

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