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Thread: Running cycle. How's it look?

  1. #31
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    Just a little useful info:

    Two types of hypogonadism:

    # Primary hypogonadism - when the Leydig cells in the testes have lost the capacity to secrete testosterone at normal, youthful levels.
    # Secondary hypogonadism - when the messages from the brain to the pituitary gland are not strong enough or frequent enough to stimulate the Leydig cells to secrete testosterone.

    Normal levels of testosterone are between 350 - 1000 ng/dl (nanograms per deciliter). Of this, 97 - 98 percent is bound. Most of the binding occurs to a sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG). The amounts of SHBG within the blood increase with age.

    Alcohol
    Alcohol consumption causes dramatic rises in estrogen levels in the body. Women will have a dramatic rise in their estrogen levels after just one drink. Men will not have a dramatic rise, but levels of estrogen will increase. Alcohol decreases zinc levels in the body.

    Zinc
    Zinc inhibits the levels of aromatase in the body. If zinc levels are inadequate, the levels of aromatase rise. Zinc is also necessary for normal pituitary functions. Without zinc, the pituitary gland cannot release the luteinizing and follicle stimulating hormones that stimulate the testes to produce testosterone. An interesting note; while zinc is necessary for testosterone production, testosterone is necessary to maintain levels of zinc in body tissues.
    Last edited by daredevil; 11-26-2008 at 02:52 AM.
    "It's only for the strong" - Johnny Jackson

  2. #32
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    I like zinc.
    Last edited by Hazcat; 11-26-2008 at 03:31 AM.

  3. #33
    Hazcat Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.X View Post
    I would avoid HCG, that's a personal bias - as I don't believe that injecting a derivative of pregnant female urine into your body is healthy. In addition, there is a school of thought which relates human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) levels to carcinogenesis. Keep in mind that HCG is produced by some tumors and is a very important tumor maker. On top of all this, nasty side-effects like increased progesterone levels during HCG use are the last things you want for your post cycle therapy.
    I just found in almost ironic that after Mr. X's statement about hcg and cancer I came across this article that they were using hcg in treatment of prostate cancer. That's the only reason I brought it up.

    The male body needs estrogen and progesterone to thrive. We shouldn't try to knock either down to 0 which will not only have an effect on the gains from out cycle it will also just simply make us feel like crap. Wouldn't 1 mg of arimidex several days in a row at the very beginning of a cycle knock down estrogen to a detrimental level?

    Deca dick has been contributed to prolactin release in the anterior portion of the pituitary gland and select other sites. Prolactin is what kills our libido along with that of a nursing mother. Dostinex will prevent deca dick even when high levels of testosterone fail.

  4. #34
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    very interesting...

    i'm curious as to why deca causes prolactin to be released in the first place though.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil View Post
    Mr.X

    HCG does not originate in pregnant female urine, it only ends up there. It's used to keep the female from becoming pregnant again during pregnancy.
    Pregnyl, Novarel (and most of the commonly used HCG brands), are derived from the urine of pregnant females. In fact, generally 2 methods of HCG production are in place: 1) extraction from urine or by genetic modification 2) modified product of recombinant DNA.

    The most popuplar brands, like Pregnyl, use method #1, while I'm only aware of Ovidrel which uses method 2.



    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil View Post
    Why are you so afraid of pregnant females??? Or their urine??
    I'll leave you to ponder why I'm not a huge advocate of injecting yourself with unnecessary extractions of pregnant female urine. See my earlier posts in this thread for reference.

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil View Post
    As far as it's effectiveness in treating prostate cancer, it's use is not in limiting the cancer growth, but as a support to the testes/leydig cells while under so much stress during radiation therapy. I don't know why the article was brought up?
    Although human chorionic gonadotropin is used as fertility medication, it's mainly used for women, and generally once or twice (course) in their whole lifetime. IMO, one of the main problem is that HCG is related to constant HCG use (abuse) in the bodybuilding community - or the misinformation on IS about the using HCG and not using AIs.

    In addition, HCG is a very serious drug, with possible harmful side effects. β subunit of HCG is a byproduct of some cancers, including one of the deadly: choriocarcinoma. In addition, it's secreted by: germ cell tumors, hyatidiform mole formation, and islet cell tumor. When a hospital tests you positive for the hormone (males), they are generally checking if you have cancer. Obviously, you don't automatically suspect cancer, but it's something used as a gauge in the medical community.

    I wouldn't inject myself with something related to cancer, and it's not something I'd recommend to the general member base.



    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil View Post
    Personally I can see where your coming from with a 12 week simple cycle. I totally believe he can recover without hcg. However, keeping the message coming to the testes to stay full during cycle (not during pct so you don't have to worry about rising progesterone levels during pct) it can make the transition into recovery even less rocky than it has to be. There are even theories out now that the reason people have lower test levels once they cycle is the lack of a message sent during the cycle. This may prevent permanent lower test levels, or at least as low as they are without hcg. It's still a new way of thinking but worth consideration.
    This is related to my message of HCG abuse above. You're recommending people abuse a hormone they have no business using in the first place. This is like me saying get gynecomastia surgery just to make sure you don't get gyno. Of course, if you are a steroid abuser and run cycles of 2 years+, then you can consider HCG - but it doesn't mean it will help. We had someone we were working with in the past here who abused anadrol/tren for about a year, and could not get his testosterone levels back to normal. Even though, he used HCG during his cycle regularly.

    The average PCT should consist of clomid/nolvadex/ some arimidex and possibly clenbuterol. HCG is unnecessary and a waste.

  6. #36
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    Well.......I dont do any of the protocol mentioned. Am I wrong in my protocol....I think not. Is everyone else....I think not. I do know there are more than 1 way to skin a cat. Some call me crazy when at wk 8 or 10 I shoot 3-5000 i.us over a 3 day period when my libido goes down. Then I do it again at wk 16- 20 and it works like a charm!

    Do I have the scientific data.......NO....but damn it, it works. I do proper PCT after and I say fuck all the studies. They get blown completely out of the water every day. We can get complicated and say exactly what this or that does and re-create the wheel....but why?

    Ive said it before and ill say it again. Ive been using hcg for 20 yrs along with a couple Mr.Louisianas, some NPC competitors and at least two world record breaking PWLFter competitors with what I read yrs ago in an anabolic reference guide. Granted he was wrong that it kickstarted the Pituitary to produce Test permanantly BUT with proper PCT works like a charm.

    Im simple and what I do works! I seldom lose much weight at all and my test levels always over 20 yrs have come back normal always time and time again after 20 yrs.

    Thats all I have to say but seems some are micro diagnosing when its really damned simple.

    gator

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gator_Mclusky View Post
    Well.......I dont do any of the protocol mentioned. Am I wrong in my protocol....I think not. Is everyone else....I think not. I do know there are more than 1 way to skin a cat. Some call me crazy when at wk 8 or 10 I shoot 3-5000 i.us over a 3 day period when my libido goes down. Then I do it again at wk 16- 20 and it works like a charm!

    Do I have the scientific data.......NO....but damn it, it works. I do proper PCT after and I say fuck all the studies. They get blown completely out of the water every day. We can get complicated and say exactly what this or that does and re-create the wheel....but why?

    Ive said it before and ill say it again. Ive been using hcg for 20 yrs along with a couple Mr.Louisianas, some NPC competitors and at least two world record breaking PWLFter competitors with what I read yrs ago in an anabolic reference guide. Granted he was wrong that it kickstarted the Pituitary to produce Test permanantly BUT with proper PCT works like a charm.

    Im simple and what I do works! I seldom lose much weight at all and my test levels always over 20 yrs have come back normal always time and time again after 20 yrs.

    Thats all I have to say but seems some are micro diagnosing when its really damned simple.

    gator
    Hey, since we are on the subject of a proper PCT... and I am reading from X that Clomid AND tamoxifen + an AI... and clen is effective... some recommend just tamoxifen... what do you recommend as YOUR PCT drug selection and combo of choice... as it consistently works.

    -VO

  8. #38
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    Mr.X

    I am curious however as to your line of thinking for clomid+tomoxifen? I could guess maybe similar to stacking? Use a little bit of both for a synergistic response?

    I do know aromasin + tomoxifen work synergistically together but please explain the 2 serms?
    "It's only for the strong" - Johnny Jackson

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil View Post

    VO, the reason you add an Aromatose inhibitor during pct is the buildup of estrogen that you see during pct that makes LH and FSH release nearly impossible with estrogen's presence via the negative feedback loop. Estrogen and test is almost nearly a 50:1 to 20:1 ratio in males. So when estrogen is a 3 or 5 the body is somehow deceived into thinking that test is at 150:3 or 250:5 and doesn't need to release more LH.
    Yeah, i understand this part... but X suggested A-Dex, not aromasin. I had always thought A-Dex specifically reduces tamoxifen's ability to aid in PCT, while aromasin does not. Am I wrong here, X?

    -VO

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil View Post
    Mr.X

    I am curious however as to your line of thinking for clomid+tomoxifen? I could guess maybe similar to stacking? Use a little bit of both for a synergistic response?

    I do know aromasin + tomoxifen work synergistically together but please explain the 2 serms?
    Most evidence to the stacking of Clomid and Nolvadex is anecdotal. The people I've worked with have gotten better results from the two - and have had better blood tests after PCT. In addition, the likely side effects during PCT include gynecomastia, which would be something Nolvadex would be handy for.

    Scientifically speaking, some studies have shown that infertile men who were given tamoxifen treatment saw an increase in the serum levels of LH, FSH, and testosterone levels. In addition, Nolvadex use can increase testosterone levels by ~150%.

    Stimulation of calcitonin secretory capacity by increased serum levels of testosterone in men treated with tamoxifen. Int J Androl. 1987 Dec;10(6):747-51.

    Hormonal changes in tamoxifen treated men with idiopathic oligozoospermia Exp Clin Endocrinol. 1988 Dec;92(2):211-6.

    Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.
    Last edited by Mr.X; 11-26-2008 at 02:16 PM.

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