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Thread: Running cycle. How's it look?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViennaOak View Post
    Yeah, i understand this part... but X suggested A-Dex, not aromasin. I had always thought A-Dex specifically reduces tamoxifen's ability to aid in PCT, while aromasin does not. Am I wrong here, X?
    This is a common misconception. Anastrozole is a competitive aromatase inhibitors, while tamoxifen is a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator). Arimidex doesn't hinder Nolvadex use nor vise-versa. To be fair, I have seen some scientific data to back both cases, but most is inconclusive at best.

    A regular PCT regiment of tamoxifen, clomifene and anastrozole would be extremely effective.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViennaOak View Post
    Hey, since we are on the subject of a proper PCT... and I am reading from X that Clomid AND tamoxifen + an AI... and clen is effective... some recommend just tamoxifen... what do you recommend as YOUR PCT drug selection and combo of choice... as it consistently works.

    -VO
    Start a new thread about this. We seem to be hijacking this members' thread.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by hazcat View Post

    Deca dick has been contributed to prolactin release in the anterior portion of the pituitary gland and select other sites. Prolactin is what kills our libido along with that of a nursing mother.
    Deca durabolin is a progestin, and most of the negative side effects such as erectile dysfunction (deca dick) and decreased cardiovascular ability is due to nandrolones' effect of lowering LH levels through a negative feedback loop (not forgetting the increased estrogen and progesterone levels). In this case, erectile dysfunction is caused by weaker action of dihydronandrolone (DHT) in the penis. Dihydrotestosterone is a sexual modulator.


    Quote Originally Posted by hazcat View Post
    Dostinex will prevent deca dick even when high levels of testosterone fail.
    I have not seen any direct evidence to support this claim.
    Last edited by Mr.X; 11-27-2008 at 12:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.X View Post
    Most evidence to the stacking of Clomid and Nolvadex is anecdotal.
    Exactly.

    But I will say that both compounds probably tend to hit different receptors so using both at moderate dosing would probably be more effective than either of them at high doses by themselves.

    Using adex with nolvadex for pct would be less effective than using aromasin with nolvadex since aromasin was created to be used alongside nolvadex for late stage breast cancer. They were created for each other.
    "It's only for the strong" - Johnny Jackson

  5. #45
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    DareDevil's question in quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil View Post
    Mr.X

    I am curious however as to your line of thinking for clomid+tomoxifen? I could guess maybe similar to stacking? Use a little bit of both for a synergistic response?

    I do know aromasin + tomoxifen work synergistically together but please explain the 2 serms?
    Mr. X's answer in quotes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.X View Post
    Most evidence to the stacking of Clomid and Nolvadex is anecdotal. The people I've worked with have gotten better results from the two - and have had better blood tests after PCT. In addition, the likely side effects during PCT include gynecomastia, which would be something Nolvadex would be handy for.

    Scientifically speaking, some studies have shown that infertile men who were given tamoxifen treatment saw an increase in the serum levels of LH, FSH, and testosterone levels. In addition, Nolvadex use can increase testosterone levels by ~150%.

    Stimulation of calcitonin secretory capacity by increased serum levels of testosterone in men treated with tamoxifen. Int J Androl. 1987 Dec;10(6):747-51.

    Hormonal changes in tamoxifen treated men with idiopathic oligozoospermia Exp Clin Endocrinol. 1988 Dec;92(2):211-6.




    Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.
    Article quoted in answer to why nolvadex and clomid together work better...I don't see the connection?
    1: Int J Androl. 1987 Dec;10(6):747-51. Links





    Stimulation of calcitonin secretory capacity by increased serum levels of testosterone in men treated with tamoxifen.

    S****man W, Slager E, Hackeng WH, Mulder H.
    Department of Internal Medicine, Eudokia Hospital, Bergsingel, Rotterdam, The Netherlands.
    Previous studies have suggested that sex steroids, including both oestrogen and testosterone, influence calcitonin secretion. However, a negative effect of gonadotrophins on calcitonin has not been excluded. Twelve men with infertility and low-normal serum levels of testosterone were studied before and during tamoxifen therapy. Increases in the serum levels of LH, FSH, testosterone and calcitonin were observed after treatment. Our findings suggest that testosterone has a direct influence on calcitonin secretion.
    PMID: 3123401 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Where is clomid mentioned? I only have access to this summary right now. Does anyone one have the entire article? I think we owe it to the board to get this right if it's a better pct.





    Last edited by Hazcat; 11-26-2008 at 06:38 PM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil View Post
    Exactly.
    You took my post out of context - read it again:
    http://forums.isteroids.com/553505-post40.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.X
    Most evidence to the stacking of Clomid and Nolvadex is anecdotal. The people I've worked with have gotten better results from the two - and have had better blood tests after PCT. In addition, the likely side effects during PCT include gynecomastia, which would be something Nolvadex would be handy for.

    Scientifically speaking, some studies have shown that infertile men who were given tamoxifen treatment saw an increase in the serum levels of LH, FSH, and testosterone levels. In addition, Nolvadex use can increase testosterone levels by ~150%.

    Stimulation of calcitonin secretory capacity by increased serum levels of testosterone in men treated with tamoxifen. Int J Androl. 1987 Dec;10(6):747-51.

    Hormonal changes in tamoxifen treated men with idiopathic oligozoospermia Exp Clin Endocrinol. 1988 Dec;92(2):211-6.

    Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.
    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil View Post
    Using adex with nolvadex for pct would be less effective than using aromasin with nolvadex since aromasin was created to be used alongside nolvadex for late stage breast cancer. They were created for each other.
    This is pure speculation. Aromasin is not an effective AI - it's very weak. We are talking about post cycle therapy after steroid use, not breast cancer treatement - those are different topics. PCT for males will be a lot different then breast cancer in females.

    Aromasin and nolvadex is a fairly weak PCT, and will not help recovery in the longer cycles. Clomid with nolvadex, along with starter arimidex dosages would be a much better combination.

  7. #47
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    Using adex with nolvadex for pct would be less effective than using aromasin with nolvadex since aromasin was created to be used alongside nolvadex for late stage breast cancer. They were created for each other.
    Agree with this statement!

    Scientifically speaking, some studies have shown that infertile men who were given tamoxifen treatment saw an increase in the serum levels of LH, FSH, and testosterone levels. In addition, Nolvadex use can increase testosterone levels by ~150%.
    Not convinced on this, sounds like a nice way to get rid of more money to me?
    If you aren't gaining weight on your current diet, how do you expect to gain weight on roids?

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smiley View Post
    Not convinced on this, sounds like a nice way to get rid of more money to me?
    There is no need for convincing, read the studies and become more aware of the facts:

    Stimulation of calcitonin secretory capacity by increased serum levels of testosterone in men treated with tamoxifen. Int J Androl. 1987 Dec;10(6):747-51.

    Hormonal changes in tamoxifen treated men with idiopathic oligozoospermia Exp Clin Endocrinol. 1988 Dec;92(2):211-6.

    Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.

    Just posted by hazcat:
    ******************

    1: Int J Androl. 1987 Dec;10(6):747-51.


    Stimulation of calcitonin secretory capacity by increased serum levels of testosterone in men treated with tamoxifen.

    S****man W, Slager E, Hackeng WH, Mulder H.
    Department of Internal Medicine, Eudokia Hospital, Bergsingel, Rotterdam, The Netherlands.
    Previous studies have suggested that sex steroids, including both oestrogen and testosterone, influence calcitonin secretion. However, a negative effect of gonadotrophins on calcitonin has not been excluded. Twelve men with infertility and low-normal serum levels of testosterone were studied before and during tamoxifen therapy. Increases in the serum levels of LH, FSH, testosterone and calcitonin were observed after treatment. Our findings suggest that testosterone has a direct influence on calcitonin secretion.
    PMID: 3123401 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Last edited by Mr.X; 11-27-2008 at 12:43 AM.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.X View Post
    There is no need for convincing, read the studies and become more aware of the facts:

    Stimulation of calcitonin secretory capacity by increased serum levels of testosterone in men treated with tamoxifen. Int J Androl. 1987 Dec;10(6):747-51.

    Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant.

    Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH

    But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response.

    The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment).
    ------------------------------------------------------
    I'll repeat that statement:

    This shows a DECREASE in pituitary sensitivity GnRH(more LH was released before treatment).

    As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.
    Last edited by daredevil; 11-27-2008 at 01:23 AM.
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    The Estrogen Clomid

    The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".

    Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2).

    This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.
    "It's only for the strong" - Johnny Jackson

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